Idnuf said:This is the most ridiculous shit I’ve ever heard. It’s a wake-up call. It reminds us just how stupid people still are, which you can lose touch with if you only interact with respectable people. People are so ignorant they know nothing about Islam other than 9/11. I’m like the only non-Muslim within a 300-mile radius to have actually read the Qu’ran (Koran). People talk about these religions when they actually have no idea what they’re about. It’s disgusting how many Christians have no idea that Muslim’s worship the same God as they do (it’s also disgusting how many Christians have no idea that the Old Testament is the Torah). Associating all Muslim’s with the 9/11 hijackers is like saying that we shouldn’t build a church near a place where an abortion clinic was bombed. Of course, no one would ever protest the latter because our country is overrun with intolerant Christians that don’t give a shit about anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus as their savior.
Not saying your totally wrong, but this sentiment isn’t going to get anyone anywhere.
It’s not a sentiment. It’s fact. People are generally ignorant about Islam. There is a misperception about the religion and the way some react to Muslims mimics racism.
Here is a story of a Puerto Rican man passing by the anti-mosque demonstration to get to work. People saw he was brown skinned and thus must be Muslim. So they began to harrass and call Muhammad a pig.
Saying that people are ignorant is pretty easy because it is true. Everyone is ignorant about certain things, but stating this doesn’t make society any better. If I really believe that people are ignorant about the faith of Islam, then it would follow that I have the responsibility to get to know these people, and teach them to see other people as their brothers and sisters. If I, as an “enlightened” person, only sit back in my chair and type a few lines bitching to some like minded folks about Christian/Conservative/Media group-think, then I’m only part of the problem.
Just an idea, not an indictment of anyone posting here. :p
del preston said:Saying that people are ignorant is pretty easy because it is true. Everyone is ignorant about certain things, but stating this doesn’t make society any better. If I really believe that people are ignorant about the faith of Islam, then it would follow that I have the responsibility to get to know these people, and teach them to see other people as their brothers and sisters. If I, as an “enlightened” person, only sit back in my chair and type a few lines bitching to some like minded folks about Christian/Conservative/Media group-think, then I’m only part of the problem.
Just an idea, not an indictment of anyone posting here. :p
Well, one person can’t exactly make friends with everyone in the world and tell them about Islam. I never said that me bitching was actually DOING anything, but I certainly have the right to do it, and it lets off steam, so I don’t see anything wrong with doing it. Nothing anyone does is going to change the ideas of people who are out there with signs saying “remember 9/11” (which I have to say makes me sick to my stomach. Yeah, use people who died there to further your agenda. That’s a lot more disrespectful to the victims than building a mosque near Ground Zero).
Also, people are acting like they’re building it on the ruins. It’s just near it. NYC is so dense that you’re near PLENTY of things.
Nothing is actually going to come out of this. People will whine and protest, but at the end of the day nothing will have changed. It’s very likely that it will be built (or at least I hope) and then it will calm down. People protest everything, and then they forget it ever happened.
^
Many muslims are ignorant racists too, get a clue dude. I honestly don’t give a shit about the ‘ground zero’ mosque (I didn’t think it was that close to the site of WTC, but I wasn’t a victim of 911). I try to listen to people and respect their opinions and feelings, no matter their religion, race, creed, culture, etc, etc.
Please get off your high horse, I know a shit ton of arabs in my city and many are openly adamant anti-semites, moreso than any of the rednecks I knew when I lived in the south.
Your getting angry because people are imperfect imbeciles, that should be a given by now.
neverbetter said:It’s not a sentiment. It’s fact. People are generally ignorant about Islam. There is a misperception about the religion and the way some react to Muslims mimics racism.
Here is a story of a Puerto Rican man passing by the anti-mosque demonstration to get to work. People saw he was brown skinned and thus must be Muslim. So they began to harrass and call Muhammad a pig.
Okay so you are willing to generalize a people as generalizers of another people, while overlooking the fact that those people who are being generalized are historically known for generalizing the most generalized people in human history?
Nothing is a fact, the fuckedupness isn’t muslim, christian, or jewishness, It’s HUMANITY! Please wake up! Some of you are getting up in arms about something that has always existed just being spun to you in a new way! Open your eyes! Take the first step by living right yourself, then try to inspire and encourage that in others around you! Stop venting by putting down others when you can’t even treat people right your damn self! That goes for all of us.
First off, I’m not trying to get into a fight with anyone. There’s a time and place for politics and the qn5 fan boards isn’t it.
Secondly, you said “generalize” a lot, so I kinda just stopped reading the words you wrote.
Thirdly, my point was that the people with signs reading: “mosques support hamas,” may not be the most well informed on Islam.
Fourth, plans to build the mosque have been in development for over a year and the only reason why this turned into a media ‘scandal’ now, is because 2010 is an election year.
@ your first off….. this is a topic called ‘Politics’ about, you guessed it, politics. Come on dude, your better than that as a first off.
Secondly, I said something that made perfect sense. People are painting christians, non-muslim americans, and anyone against a ground zero mosque as misinformed and predjudice hatemongers in the same way that others are painting all muslims as supporters of terrorism; and while all this is going on many muslims are anti-Semitic. It’s all the same shit, and its all wrong.
Third, that’s not a point at all, why would any outsider be the most well informed on Islam? Why is being well informed on Islam important? Why can’t people just be regular informed? Being informed on Islam doesn’t matter for most non-muslims, knowing how to have compassion and understanding does matter. And that wasn’t your point initially; initially you posted a story from some website about a hispanic dude being mistaken for a muslim and being harrassed. You were supporting Idnuf in his hypocritical rant of generalizing the non-muslim americans and christians as ignorant and ‘disgusting’ muslim haters. You agreed with his sentiment of hypocrisy and predjudice.
Fourth, who cares if plans were around for over a year? Everyone gets a say and obviously people are bothered by this thing. Does it deserve as much cover as its getting? Of course not. Are you saying the media pushes divisive corporately funded “hot topics” to sway the minds of the people to fulfill their own agendas on election day? ... Well, Duh. Not the point I was addressing at all.
I’m speaking out against wrongfully associating christianity with muslim hate. I’m saying never paint a group of people a certain way when you don’t know them personally at all. Its not okay just because others are wrongfully associating islam with terrorism. Its all equally wrong and as Idnuf says ‘disgusting’. Get it?
Just saying I don’t want to get involved in a longwinded political argument with anybody on a music blog. Nothing ever comes from it except everyone getting pissed. This has already digressed from a conversation to argumentative name calling. Let’s stop the abrasiveness; otherwise I’ll stop posting in this thread. We’re all blue schoolers that’s why we’re here in the first place.. Back to the convo.
You wrote, “Being informed on Islam doesn’t matter for most non-muslims, knowing how to have compassion and understanding does matter.” I personally don’t think it’s possible for anyone to understand, or have compassion for, something that they know nothing about. It’s human nature to fear the unknown; if we have a means to familiarize ourselves with the “other” we should take the opportunity. I’m not saying study the Koran, just read a Wikipedia article for god’s sake. Speak to a muslim person. People should inform themselves to avoid making a brash judgment.
Also, I don’t think everybody against the building of the mosque is ignorant about Islam. There are people who rationally know that Islam is a peaceful religion and that Muslim Americans also lost their lives on 9/11. However, some people just can’t emotionally segregate that from the fact that extremists used (a perverted version of) the religion to kill thousands.
Furthermore, I don’t see any posts by Idnuf or I that say, ‘Muslims don’t stereotype against Christians’; do you? I’m not sure why I’m being attacked on this front when I agree with you here. Obviously Muslims stereotype too. Tea Baggers who call Allah a ‘monkey god’ and people like the ones harassing that Puerto Rican man add fuel to the fire and propagate muslim stereotypes of Christians as a whole.
You started the argument….noones calling anyone names. If you feel hurt grab a tissue but I’m not attacking you, I’m just not feeling some of what you’re saying.
I was right, with the only thing I said which was that anyone with Idnuf’s perspective is just as wrong as the tea baggers calling allah a monkey god and in the exact same way. He is speaking as a hypocrite when he says…
Idnuf said: our country is overrun with intolerant Christians that don’t give a shit about anyone who doesn’t accept Jesus as their savior.
The only reason I mentioned that many muslims are predjudiced was to illustrate the point that their interests are no more important than the interests of the christians, or any other group. The point is there is no right side to these arguments, all sides are flawed. When you side with muslims trying to build this mosque you are going against the families of the victims of 9/11 who don’t want it built. Those people have a right to protest it just as the muslims have a right to try and build the mosque. There is no morally correct reasoning for supporting one side or the other. Describing anyone that protests this mosque as either being ignorant or somehow emotionally disabled doesn’t work for me either, sorry.
IMO, telling people to read the wiki page on Islam to somehow make themselves more compassionate is laughable. Why not have all the muslims read the wiki page on judaism or christianity, or what if everyone read the wiki page on buddhism. really, ur serious with that suggestion?
The point is don’t tell people what to do, that’s the point of all of this, because not you, not me, not anyone knows what’s best. The only sure good thing is when we coexist with respect and love. The best thing is being responsible for what we as individuals propagate, if we all look in the mirror and fix ourselves then our society, environment, our world will follow suit. Thinking you know better than someone else is the problem.
del preston said:Saying that people are ignorant is pretty easy because it is true. Everyone is ignorant about certain things, but stating this doesn’t make society any better. If I really believe that people are ignorant about the faith of Islam, then it would follow that I have the responsibility to get to know these people, and teach them to see other people as their brothers and sisters. If I, as an “enlightened” person, only sit back in my chair and type a few lines bitching to some like minded folks about Christian/Conservative/Media group-think, then I’m only part of the problem.
Just an idea, not an indictment of anyone posting here. :p
or what if everyone read the wiki page on buddhism.
The world would be a better place if that happened….
But seriously, saying anyone who protests the interfaith center is a complete idiot… that is a perfect fair generalization… there is no logical argument against the center.
I was being facetious about reading the Wikipedia article. Just saying, if a person wants to make a judgment on something he should know the basics so the individual’s opinion is based on some information, not just prejudice.
I was focusing on Christian discrimination against muslims because we were discussing the mosque where discrimination against the muslims may have a tangible effect on whether or not it gets built.
If your main point is that everyone discriminates, well .. duh. Of course muslims discriminate too. I wasn’t arguing that. I didn’t bring that up at the time b/c it wasn’t relevant to the issue of the mosque.
If I would have seen his part in the SC presidential debate in 2008, I think I would have voted for him instead of Obama. He KILLED it (and he’s a conservative republican, wtf!) The media didn’t really cover anyone but Obama, McCain, Hillary, and John Edwards.
After seeing Obama re-appoint Bernanke and reveal his puppet strings by completely continuing to aide and abet Wall Street and investment banks, I felt like I’d never vote again. I’m sick of being manipulated by the charade and the lies told to us by both parties before a presidential election. Ron Paul gives me hope that I may again one day vote, though how can I ever trust that a candidate will stay the same after taking office.
I’m sorry, Ron Paul is a crazy ass libertarian. I can get behind some of his ideas…but not all of them. I did find it refreshing that he ripped the Republicans on their stance on the mosque though. He basically said: We didn’t condemn all Christians after the Timothy McVeigh bombing, so why condemn all Muslims for 9/11.
jinx8402 said:I’m sorry, Ron Paul is a crazy ass libertarian. I can get behind some of his ideas…but not all of them. I did find it refreshing that he ripped the Republicans on their stance on the mosque though. He basically said: We didn’t condemn all Christians after the Timothy McVeigh bombing, so why condemn all Muslims for 9/11.
I didn’t want to be the first one to say it, but Ron Paul is bat shit insane… the only reason he gets any attention and any following is because, to his credit, he is an honest politician. If all you are looking for is a politician that doesn’t lie to you, then Ron Paul is your guy. If you want someone who lives in their own fantasy world of Libertarian Fairy Dust, then Ron Paul is your guy. Just one look at his foreign policy should be enough to show you he is insane.
If you can go from voting to Obama to voting for Ron Paul, that just shows a complete lack of understanding of the issues. Anyone who gets elected in this era will “show their puppet strings”, it is the political culture we live in.
If you “sick of being manipulated” then you need to realize that the only way to see real sustainable and effective change is through grassroots, bottom up, transpartisan, social movements. Voting for the president might take 30 out of the 525,600 minutes in the entire year. That’s 0.000057077625571% of the year, if you spent that same percentage of time trying to achieve any other goal in your life do you think it would work? I don’t think so. Change starts with us, as citizens, we need to reject what we don’t like. Completely and totally. Weather it is the things we buy, the food we eat, the things we talk about, the art we absorb, the people we associate with, the things we think about, the tv we watch, everything is interconnected and until we realize that, we are stuck in the shit hole we created for ourselves.
I know I am coming off as a huge self righteous douche bag, but that’s the mood I’m in right now. I apologize, kinda.
I do reject what I don’t like and that’s shitty inefficient government shoving their noses into every facet of life in our country. I understand all of the issues with crystal clarity and just because you’ve been told that Ron Paul and other libertarians are crazy doesn’t make it so. Yes, you did come off like a douche bag and I took nothing from your drawnout post. I especially thought it was lame how you tacked on that piece about change, then you misspelled whether and blabbed on about being a smart consumer, like any of that has anything to do with Ron Paul or is contrary to his views.
The reason Paul gets attention is, yes, because he’s honest and he speaks out against big government and the federal reserve. I support that stuff now, back when Obama was running I really believed that our government could turn things around and do some good. Now I believe the best thing is for much less government, basically just using government for what government can actually do and not continuing to waste tax money on these impossible tasks. The War on Drugs and the War of Terror were/are total crocks of shit, total wastes of resources. We need to get back to honoring the bill of rights and constitution. I support Paul’s foreign policy of getting out of other countries until we can get our own country in better shape. The U.S. is not some global police force.
Paul isn’t perfect, not by a long shot. I’ve read that he’s opposed “Hate Crime” Laws, amnesty for illegals, and citizenship for children of illegals born here. He’s also a opponent of welfare which I don’t like. Those are definitely issues I can’t agree with him on but the thing is I want the government to stop trying to do so much and just actually help us and our society, not run the country like a business.
If the election were today I just wouldn’t vote.
Shoulda went with TLDR for your post, I’ll do that next time I see a Bosoxfan post. If you do respond though do it with specific examples, quotes, and issue-stances, that indicate Ron Paul’s craziness, I wanna read that.
the fact that libertarians generally stand for eliminating government-funded education makes me stop listening any time someone starts in on how great libertarianism is. I’d rather be a communist than a libertarian. And btw, if you’re really waiting for a libertarian to stop opposing welfare you’re in the wrong boat, homie. Also forget about your healthcare.
but what the fuck do I know, I voted for Kucinich. He’s honest, opposed to the war on drugs, a strong proponent of hate crime legislation, and slightly less bat shit crazy than Ron Paul (he had that whole UFO thing going on but no one’s perfect).
bosox is absolutely spot on with his last post.
Bosoxfanpw7 said:Anyone who gets elected in this era will “show their puppet strings”, it is the political culture we live in.
co-FUCKING-sign. <3 you, dude. It’s totally unfortunate but it’s the truth. You won’t get elected and you won’t get anything done if you totally cut the strings.
I don’t subscribe to any political party btw, I think I’m registered ...democrat?? Yeah, I switched from indie to vote for Obama cause in PA you need to be part of the party to vote in prelims.
PretendGirl said:the fact that libertarians generally stand for eliminating government-funded education makes me stop listening any time someone starts in on how great libertarianism is. I’d rather be a communist than a libertarian. And btw, if you’re really waiting for a libertarian to stop opposing welfare you’re in the wrong boat, homie. Also forget about your healthcare.
but what the fuck do I know, I voted for Kucinich. He’s honest, opposed to the war on drugs, a strong proponent of hate crime legislation, and slightly less bat shit crazy than Ron Paul (he had that whole UFO thing going on but no one’s perfect).
bosox is absolutely spot on with his last post.
Bosoxfanpw7 said:Anyone who gets elected in this era will “show their puppet strings”, it is the political culture we live in.
co-FUCKING-sign. <3 you, dude. It’s totally unfortunate but it’s the truth. You won’t get elected and you won’t get anything done if you totally cut the strings.
Know what? I voted for Kucinich as well! Fuckin love you 2!
I won’t put much time into responding to Trash, but one thing that I can’t let go is this “We need to go back to the constitution and bill of rights” idea. It is completely irrational, the constitution IS a flawed document as well as a living document. The constitution is the same as the bible, trying to make a literal interpretation is useless and does far more harm than good. If you want to live with the viewpoint of someone from the 1700’s then that’s your prerogative. But it has no place in serious political debate.
Your premise is, while factually accurate, still shit. Here’s why:
Are some Christians and some Muslims ignorant hate mongers?
Yes.
Are American Christian hatemongers more likely to impose their ignorant hatemongering on me, my future children, laws that impact me directly and my everyday Constitutional rights?
Absolutely fucking yes, because of their majority status in populous, politics, media etc.—so I’m going to be more vocal in opposing it.
That is when your 50/50 “Everyone Is Stupid” argument goes up in smoke in this particular situation…and frankly you sound like you have a personal issue with the “shit ton of Arabs” in your city.
Absolutely fucking yes, because of their majority status in populous, politics, media etc.—so I’m going to be more vocal in opposing it.
You are going to be vocal about opposing Christianity? Or you mean opposed to ignorant christian hatemongering, right? Because a line needs be drawn.
I never said it was 50/50 or that one wrong cancels out the other. But what is it with politics and accusations? and frankness haha. You think I have a personal issue with the arab community in the Lehigh Valley? Based off what, cause I said the word shit? Come on man, where’d you pull that out of? Definitely not the same place that your beats come from. Please don’t be offended if I say your solo album is the shit.
I just wanna talk about my political thoughts/ideas/opinions (which are not concrete) without being accused of something for no reason.
There are actually a lot of Arabs here. Syrian and Lebanese, pretty big communities. This is where I tell you that some of my best and good friends are of Arabic descent. I have no personal issue with them as a people in any way and I actually share a religion with the majority of my Lebanese friends.
I know a shit ton of (or would you prefer many) Arabs, and although I don’t group people by race when talking about them personally, they’re mostly all cool. The Syrians I know tend to just call people they don’t like yahoods (Jews) a bit and some actually hate Jews (or say so). I think the word Jew is actually funny sounding so I don’t have a major problem with that but I don’t share the anti-Semitic sentiment with those friends and acquaintances. I don’t have an issue with any people, especially due to race. I’m christian but I don’t wanna proselytize, I just wanna know what others think.
I agree with you, Kno, the Christian majority is coming pretty damn close to if not already imposing on the freedoms of the Muslim minority in our country. We should address that problem while its going on and being publicized.
I really hope that dude doesn’t burn those Qurans this weekend. To burn those books would truly be ignorant, hateful, stupid, dangerous, and disgusting.
I’m just saying don’t let people paint christians the way they painted muslims, shit is messed up and wrong. Many of us just wanna do right and not kill anything.
Oh and back to my other convo…
PretendGirl said:the fact that libertarians generally stand for eliminating government-funded education makes me stop listening any time someone starts in on how great libertarianism is.
Absolutely fucking yes, because of their majority status in populous, politics, media etc.—so I’m going to be more vocal in opposing it.
You are going to be vocal about opposing Christianity? Or you mean opposed to ignorant christian hatemongering, right? Because a line needs be drawn.
I never said it was 50/50 or that one wrong cancels out the other. But what is it with politics and accusations? and frankness haha. You think I have a personal issue with the arab community in the Lehigh Valley? Based off what, cause I said the word shit? Come on man, where’d you pull that out of? Definitely not the same place that your beats come from. Please don’t be offended if I say your solo album is the shit.
I just wanna talk about my political thoughts/ideas/opinions (which are not concrete) without being accused of something for no reason.
There are actually a lot of Arabs here. Syrian and Lebanese, pretty big communities. This is where I tell you that some of my best and good friends are of Arabic descent. I have no personal issue with them as a people in any way and I actually share a religion with the majority of my Lebanese friends.
I know a shit ton of (or would you prefer many) Arabs, and although I don’t group people by race when talking about them personally, they’re mostly all cool. The Syrians I know tend to just call people they don’t like yahoods (Jews) a bit and some actually hate Jews (or say so). I think the word Jew is actually funny sounding so I don’t have a major problem with that but I don’t share the anti-Semitic sentiment with those friends and acquaintances. I don’t have an issue with any people, especially due to race. I’m christian but I don’t wanna proselytize, I just wanna know what others think.
I agree with you, Kno, the Christian majority is coming pretty damn close to if not already imposing on the freedoms of the Muslim minority in our country. We should address that problem while its going on and being publicized.
I really hope that dude doesn’t burn those Qurans this weekend. To burn those books would truly be ignorant, hateful, stupid, dangerous, and disgusting.
I liked your first reply better, before you edited it to sound more “G”.
The Trashman said:Sorry, dude I don’t wanna say something I don’t mean. I don’t wanna sound G, I just wanna be clear.
Yes, I am opposed to fearmongering hatred.
I didn’t accuse you of anything, I’m simply making a comment on how you’re coming across—like someone touched a nerve ie: Muslim/Arabic racism. I said you “sound like”—not “you are”—that is your cue to reflect on how you’re coming across if it bothers you how your words are being perceived.
2 by four said on Aug 24, 2010:
The Trashman said on Aug 24, 2010:
neverbetter said on Aug 24, 2010:
del preston said on Aug 24, 2010:
Idnuf said on Aug 24, 2010:
The Trashman said on Sep 05, 2010:
The Trashman said on Sep 05, 2010:
neverbetter said on Sep 05, 2010:
The Trashman said on Sep 05, 2010:
neverbetter said on Sep 06, 2010:
The Trashman said on Sep 06, 2010:
The Trashman said on Sep 06, 2010:
Bosoxfanpw7 said on Sep 06, 2010:
neverbetter said on Sep 07, 2010:
The Trashman said on Sep 07, 2010:
jinx8402 said on Sep 07, 2010:
The Trashman said on Sep 08, 2010:
Bosoxfanpw7 said on Sep 08, 2010:
The Trashman said on Sep 08, 2010:
PretendGirl said on Sep 08, 2010:
The Trashman said on Sep 08, 2010:
Bosoxfanpw7 said on Sep 08, 2010:
artistKno said on Sep 08, 2010:
Osiris said on Sep 08, 2010:
The Trashman said on Sep 08, 2010:
The Trashman said on Sep 08, 2010:
Bosoxfanpw7 said on Sep 08, 2010:
artistKno said on Sep 08, 2010:
The Trashman said on Sep 08, 2010:
artistKno said on Sep 08, 2010: