Alright well I want to hopefully address this question to the actual artists, be they CunninLynguists, other QN5 artists, or whatever non-affiliated artists are on these boards. So I’m sure this question has been asked here a hundred times but it basically has to do with piracy.
As artists, would you basically rather people that could not afford your music not listen to it? I’m a pretty poor college student. Some days I can’t afford to eat properly. The truth of the matter is that I download music. Now I understand that artists have put forth great time and likely greater effort into creating their art, however, there is just no reasonable way that at this point in my life I could buy some great amount of music.
So let’s remove piracy from existence for a second; I still can not afford to buy music. This way I would likely never have stumbled upon any of the great music that I have in the past. Chances are I would never have found any QN5 artists amongst a butt load of others. Now although it may be true that I can not always afford to support the artist in the conventional sense, since I have become a fan I have introduced your music to easily at least 30 people. I have bought multiple CDs, multiple shirts, and have been to multiple shows, along with bringing several people to said shows. Now of those 30 people, I don’t know that many of them are great supporters, but I can without a doubt say that at least 5 of them own a CD, a shirt, or have been to a show.
I’m not trying to make myself seem as some messiah of spreading artist fame or anything, just merely trying to bring up the question of whether the artist prefers this limited support or if they would prefer that the individual just refrains from obtaining their music illegally and even knowing of their existence at all. I don’t want to be trolled with responses of you cheap ass or whatever, I’m just trying to point out the ways in which piracy stimulates sales.
I know this may be a difficult question for an artist to answer, because in some ways I’m sure they just want to have their music heard, however, is it really a sound idea to openly come out and say “yeah download my music.” I think there is a lot of moral ambiguity on the subject and I would just like to hear some of the artist’s take on the matter. Hopefully you guys don’t take offense to this.
It really is very simple—it costs money to create and release music to the public. I don’t make music to make money, I make music because I enjoy making music—but in order to make the quality of music I insist of myself and those I work there has to be a monetary return of some sort, if only to fund said creation and release. If I wanted an expensive hobby with no monetary return I’d collect stamps or snort coke.
But—I must say I have found a weird thread running through many people in our fanbase that reflects a point of view that “Purchasing CunninLynguists’ music is not necessary.” I’ve tried hard for years to pinpoint where this sentiment comes from—maybe from the fact that early on our CD’s were really hard to find so at some point our fans just decided illegal downloading was how you got our shit and never gave actually buying it another thought, or maybe from comments we’ve made onstage in support of illegal downloading and spreading the music—but I’m really unsure. All I know is numbers don’t lie—and I can point out more than a handful of acts that can’t pack a venue to save their lives, have less fans on every social network, worse reviews, etc.—yet magically double or triple us in sales. I really don’t get it.
That being said, it is absolutely IMPERATIVE that anyone who owns even one bootleg QN5 MP3 support us—through word-of-mouth, dragging someone to a concert, wearing a shirt, buying a CD, forcing someone to listen to a CD-R in your car or putting a sticker on your car—every little bit helps, even if it isn’t monetary.
SiR_FoX said: I’m just trying to point out the ways in which piracy stimulates sales.
I will add this though—as I’ve said before, CunninLynguists are kind of past the “Bootlegging grows your fanbase…” argument. It held merit from 2001 to say 2006 or so, because we didn’t have proper distribution and it was hard to do extensive touring—we were “paying dues”—but it is now 2010 and we have 4 albums, 4 mixtapes and hundreds of shows under our belts. At SOME POINT more than 4% those 226,027 Last.fm listeners (and everyone else) need to stop poor-mouthing and pay for a CD, buy a shirt or come to a show lol.
full disclosure, my first couple QN5 albums were bootlegged (I’m talking 2004-ish, I think it was EFamm and FMv2, which I don’t even have any more) and I was definitely a poor college student. I started buying albums shortly after, though, with money I could scrape together, and now that I’m a grown up with a grown up job I buy my way out of my guilt as much as possible. I own multiple copies of albums, I own most of the women’s shirts, I often insist that my boyfriend buy his own damn copy of QN5 CDs even though we share all of our stuff.
Why not buy a track on Amazon or iTunes every time you can scrape a buck together?
Kno, people who don’t buy your albums must not be on your forums. Shortly after I was introduced to QN5 I joined the community. With the artists posting frequently on the forums it’s impossible to feel good downloading their stuff. I am really surprised you guys don’t outsell anyone with a similar sized following.
I agree with you both.. I bought my first QN5 cd in 2007 and at then i’d already been a listener(/downloader) for at least 4 years. You are exactly on point, Kno. Somehow, because it was so hard to get your hands on a physical copy (especially when you live in Denmark), it was suddenly okay to just download it free. It IS deffinitely easier to “do the right thing” now that even people like me, who lives in the oddest small countries, can get their hands on physical copies.
That being said, I don’t think the “being easier to get your hands on physical copies” thing is the reason i started supporting/buying, - I think it was the fact that i found my kind of music, what i thought the music industry needed, lyrics I actually could relate to.. I have slowly gotten more quality-conscious because of QN5, and I think many people feels the same way - many because of different artists than me, but still. And part of it may well be the fact i’ve grown older and ain’t such an ego-trippin young kid anymore….!
Damn I wasn’t expecting a response from you this quickly Kno. Just to further clarify what I was saying: in no way, shape, or form am I implying that buying your music is not necessary. It’s like if you respect something, then you should support it in any fashion that you can. Realistically though, can you reasonably expect somebody to purchase all the material that you put out?
What I’m trying to ask is if you feel that piracy is the equivalent of a lost sale. As a fan of all kinds of music, and I’m sure you can most certainly relate, the way I feel is that in some situations either I enjoy something illegally or I just don’t enjoy it at all. At the end of the day I ask myself if I were in your position, how would I feel about the situation? The truth is that I would love to be compensated for the effort and soul that I put into my work, yet at the same time if there is a way that somebody can enjoy my efforts without it directly taking out of my pockets, and actually in some fashions contributing to said pockets, then I would not be completely against these methods.
I can certainly see how it can get frustrating though to see yourself becoming more well known and yet not having the success translate to sales. I think this may have something to do with your demographic though. You guys are still a fairly obscure hip hop act, and the individuals that ARE likely to come across your music, are also likely to not necessarily be financially stable. When you have so many artists appealing to a younger audience, or to the radio audience you can always rely on ringtone sales and parents that will buy things for their children. When somebody in my circle of friends can’t afford to buy something it’s not likely that somebody will get it for them as a gift.
Still though even as a self-admitted bootlegger I am proud to say that I have been directly responsible for quite a hefty gross for you guys. Hopefully with each new release, and each new show in this general area we can multiply that number substantially! Oh and yeah new shirts too! My girlfriend got me a WRFF shirt for Christmas and it is pretty much my favorite shirt.
Personally I stopped downloading music illegally when I was 14 and started listening to artists that weren’t making money hand over fist. I feel that their need to make a decent living and suppprt their passion far exceeds my need to impatiently hear all their music at once when I can’t afford it. Even in times in my life when I was going to school and working full time and I didn’t have much money to spare I would save money just to buy a $15 cd. At the end of the day nobody should have to put in a hard days work and get nothing to show for it, whether they love their job or not. As for turning other people onto music, that can still be done without having the complete discography of an artist. That can be done with a single cd that you purchased. I’m not trying to sound preachy, I’m just trying to make a point that stealing is stealing and it is never a victimless crime no matter what good you think may have come from it.
i download illegally to discover music without a doubt
if i enjoy it i buy it and if i dont like it i dont buy it
simple as that
if i download an album and listen to it once i dont feel bad for downloading it at all
but if i download an album and listen to it everyday, i feel morally obliged to purchase the cd
wrestler1256 said:i download illegally to discover music without a doubt
if i enjoy it i buy it and if i dont like it i dont buy it
simple as that
if i download an album and listen to it once i dont feel bad for downloading it at all
but if i download an album and listen to it everyday, i feel morally obliged to purchase the cd
That may work for you but the problem is that there are plenty of people that don’t feel morally obliged to buy something they downloaded just because they like it. Especially if money is scarce as it is with the TC(not pointing fingers).
I Dl’d the efamm album illegally on a whim. Played it nonstop and learned about tone through that. I went on to illegally dl APOS after looking him up and hearing the gates.
This happened to be right at the time of the ‘09 megashow. i heard APOS would be done front to back so I showed up and I’ve been hooked since. Now I’m buying QN5 albums, I went back to see the crew at Bowery Poetry, and I’m just waiting until I can buy the megashow dvd or see them live again .
w/o the illegal dls, I wouldn’t have any idea of what qn5 was.
The basic premise here is, “if I had the money, I would”...so this question really concerns the ethics of delaying a purchase, am I right? We’ve all done it. I have my share of excuses. “No cash.” “CD is from Germany, almost out of print, and a bitch to ship.”
Here’s an interesting little thought exercise for you…if you download and enjoy someone’s music for free in lieu of a paid alternative for a month, after which you finally invest in the paid alternative, do you owe that person extra money for enjoyment you experienced during that first month?
The crux of all modern debates concerning fair use, DRM etc. regarding ANY form of digitized media concerns whether when we buy a CD (or book, or what have you)...we are buying the right to use the IP contained on or in that physical product…or we are merely buying ownership of the physical product (guess which side the RIAA is on).
If we believe that what we are paying for is the product…then, pfft. Whatever. We buy the CD when we buy the CD. If the music’s there without the CD in the meantime, we’ll listen to it. All’s gravy, right?
But if we believe that what we are paying for is use...well then, we’re basically enjoying something that we can’t quite pay for yet. Even if that isn’t a lost sale, it’s at the very least a mortgaged sale.
So my philosophy is…if you’re going to delay a purchase, then when you finally get around to buying that CD you’d better damned well buy a poster, T-shirt, and tickets to a live show too. You pay interest on loans, right? It’s the least you could do. The word of mouth “buzz” OP describes falls under this umbrella.
That still wouldn’t be an equitable exchange, though. And that’s what people need to understand…because the fact of the matter is, future income doesn’t pay present bills, and it takes money to throw a show or manufacture a disc. We’re not just talking about lost profits that make rappaz mad, we’re talking about a reduced capacity to cover costs that leaves artists in debt and unable to produce the music that we want to hear. If your $12 hits a QN5 artist’s accounts years after they’ve been forced to quit music to pay off debt…well, it probably doesn’t do a whole lot of good.
What we really need is for people to support, however they can, as SOON as they can. I understand that folks have a limited capacity for discretionary spending…that’s fine. But if you have SOME? Downgrade a few meals. Put that money towards albums. You might not have enough money to cover every album you want to listen to…that’s fine. But if you have SOME? Figure out which horses really need the backing, and stick with ‘em. You might not have enough to buy an entire album…but if you have SOME? Buy it track by track.
Here’s some perspective on the “well why not tour more” argument that will inevitably crop up:
“Now, _this_ is a subject of which I know quite a bit. Touring, if you’re signed, is quite nice, because the label generally pays [read: lends money] for the bus (the mythical “tour support”) thus turning the whole operation in to a money-making enterprise. Touring, when you’re not signed, is at best a break-even proposition, even for a popular band that moves merch. That is, unless your band doesn’t do drugs, doesn’t drink, doesn’t ever need to shower or eat, and can teleport from show to show. And is only one dude.” - comment thread on the profitability of Imogen Heap’s most recent tour
PretendGirl said:Kno, people who don’t buy your albums must not be on your forums.
Nah, they don’t. Everyone here is a true soldier—but my best estimate is that true, dyed in the wool QN5 fans only account for about 2 or 3% of our (CL) fanbase so obviously the issue doesn’t lie with ya’ll.
SiR_FoX said:Realistically though, can you reasonably expect somebody to purchase all the material that you put out?
What I’m trying to ask is if you feel that piracy is the equivalent of a lost sale.
No and no, but I think my previous answer probably covered those bases.
I do not and have never expected anyone to buy anything, but I’m just telling those that can support but mentally justify not doing it that if Rapidsharing our albums, smoking weed to a burnt CD-R and scrobbling 100 plays on Last.fm is the extent of your involvement with us as a bare-bones independent group—the music we make won’t be made much longer.
Tell someone about us, burn your friends a copy of your bootlegs, buy a .99 cent song, come to a show—but do something. If only 5% of the people that listen to us actually support us, then we just need to get 10 million people listening to us—not badmouth the other 95%.
deStructuralized said:Here’s some perspective on the “well why not tour more” argument that will inevitably crop up:
“Now, _this_ is a subject of which I know quite a bit. Touring, if you’re signed, is quite nice, because the label generally pays [read: lends money] for the bus (the mythical “tour support”) thus turning the whole operation in to a money-making enterprise. Touring, when you’re not signed, is at best a break-even proposition, even for a popular band that moves merch. That is, unless your band doesn’t do drugs, doesn’t drink, doesn’t ever need to shower or eat, and can teleport from show to show. And is only one dude.” - comment thread on the profitability of Imogen Heap’s most recent tour
Plus our profits are split between 3 people and a DJ and an opening act and whoever else we need to make the shows happen (merch people, booking agency, etc.)
Add on to this the fact that hundreds of popular venues are shutting down—the Dame in KY, CBGB’s in NYC, etc.
Another little known fact is the lead time to plan a tour has gone from 3 months to 6-7 in just a couple years. In 2007 we could plan a tour 3 months out and be good, now we are literally putting together November-December plans TODAY—and might not be able to make it work because it is too close. Too many acts touring, too few venues, too few promoters, too little money to be had.
So for artists with dayjobs like Tone—how exactly is he supposed to put together a touring schedule 7 months in advance and actually expect to get time off, if only 2 weeks? When was the last time you asked for a vacation 7 months in advance—in this economy? lol
This is just the reality of the situation—that is why every little bit of support helps.
energetikk said:Somehow, because it was so hard to get your hands on a physical copy (especially when you live in Denmark), it was suddenly okay to just download it free. It IS deffinitely easier to “do the right thing” now that even people like me, who lives in the oddest small countries, can get their hands on physical copies.
Yeah, this is what I’m saying—I’ve found a lot of people, especially overseas, just wrote off ever needing to support our music in that way a long time ago for whatever reason.
A good example - Dirty Acres was released by a European record label, so even if you didn’t buy it preorder, you could pick it up at your local shop without the usual exorbitant import fee—but if you guys saw the abysmal digital and physical European sales numbers for this record in comparison to the U.S. sales you’d be shocked, especially when you see pictures from our Euro shows with 500-700 people in the venues…lol
So yeah, non-U.S. fans I’m calling you out specifically—it isn’t 2003 anymore, step it up!
I download music illegally all the time. However when I like something I buy it, or I sometimes just buy music on a whim but yeah, 80% of my music if illegally downloaded. But I spend alot on music and could never afford to listen to as much music as I like to if I bought everything, but there are dozens of albums that i’ve bought and that i’d never have heard if it wasnt for illegal downloading and that includes QN5. I first heard QN5 via an illegal download of WRFF, and up to date ive probs spent about $150 on Qn5 releases. Without that original download i’d have never heard them. I basically see illegal downloading as the modern version of dubbing a cassette for a friend. Now though there are people who download everything illegally and buy nothing. They, imo are where the problem lies.
On a personal note, as a fan, I download shit illegally all the time, too. Some groups get the auto-purchase (The Roots, Outkast, etc.) while some get the once-through at the gym and then I decide if I’m going to buy it or delete it from my phone/iPod.
Because let’s be frank here—most music sucks and truly isn’t worth the money nowadays. This is probably even more reason you should plop down at least .99 cents for one of our songs—simply as a “Thank You” for not sucking.
Something that interests me is the idea that me, or more specifically kids 3-4 years younger than me, are the first generation to really grow up with this era of illegal downloading. Okay, I know bootlegs have been around for a while, but the ease of getting an album for free now has never been seen before. The current generation of artists and current generations of fans seem to be on different pages.
Also, kids in the last 5-10 years have been brought up with the mainstream music industry saturated with the imagery of money (ie the bling era) and maybe they just assume anyone who’s famous enough to play a live show is rich?
Kno said:
Because let’s be frank here—most music sucks and truly isn’t worth the money nowadays. This is probably even more reason you should plop down at least .99 cents for one of our songs—simply as a “Thank You” for not sucking.
Epic Aesthetic said:Something that interests me is the idea that me, or more specifically kids 3-4 years younger than me, are the first generation to really grow up with this era of illegal downloading. Okay, I know bootlegs have been around for a while, but the ease of getting an album for free now has never been seen before. The current generation of artists and current generations of fans seem to be on different pages.
Also, kids in the last 5-10 years have been brought up with the mainstream music industry saturated with the imagery of money (ie the bling era) and maybe they just assume anyone who’s famous enough to play a live show is rich?
Not a reason/excuse.. just a thought.
Nah, you’re 100% right—but my main concern with this is treating art, especially hip-hop, like it is completely disposable. If you have no reason to value music beyond it being a free digital file, artists have no reason to make anything that resonates.
Why spend a year meticulously crafting something like A Piece of Strange when we just get passed over for shows, festivals, articles, promotional opportunities in favor of some act wearing $300 jeans who have only released a couple freestyled MP3 mixtapes over other people’s beats? We’d be better off spending 1 month on making the music and 11 months on marketing—that seems like everyone else’s business model now.
Well you shouldn’t have to worry about fans overseas not giving you shine no more. The pre-order system QN5 works great and makes it possible for fans overseas to buy albums at a really fair price. You guys are getting love all the way over here in Hong Kong.
But I can honestly say of the people in my age group (just about to turn 20) that maybe 1 out of 50 actually pay for their music and maybe only 1 out of 100 strictly buys music legally. It just isn’t the norm anymore to shell out your pocket money or part-time earnings on music anymore. Like you said Kno, most of the stuff out there just isn’t worth it either. Also, it’s not like you can find a lot of good music in your usual commercial chain music stores anymore. Sometimes I find stuff that I like that iTunes won’t have and Amazon won’t restock. That’s where I find music-sharing internet communities helpful. Most of those people running and frequenting these sites, blogs and servers have a passion for music that I can identify with so I won’t deny that I love finding and sharing music that in that way, even if it is illegal.
Because of the internet I’ve been introduced to so much music I would not have been able to know otherwise. I want to be give back in that sense so I share what I have in my collection and always encourage all the people I know to go out there and cop the music and support the artists in whatever way they can. I’d emphatically tell them to buy music too if saying so wouldn’t make me a hypocrite; it wasn’t long ago that I went on crazy downloading sprees of all QN5 releases when I first discovered APOS. Things are different now obviously. I’ve bought over 6 shirts, 4 tickets in advance for 2 shows I never got to attend, and have 5 albums purchased directly from the QN5 website (even though I probably have over 20 albums downloaded from the internet). I will also pre-order any future QN5 releases without thinking twice and continue to vouch for the high quality of music that this label releases to anyone that will listen.
Obviously none of this would have happened without me discovering CL on the internet in the first place so in that sense I still continue to discover and download music using the internet but once I find something I like or love in the case of QN5, I try to support the music wholeheartedly, especially if it’s the work of independent artists who make music with no compromises. Personally, I try to rationalize my purchases because I can only spend so much. I would buy all my music if I had the dough but since I don’t, I try to support acts that haven’t already “made it”. The newest Jay-Z, Wu-Tang, Nas and etc. will probably be downloaded and the newest Grip Grand, Blu & Exile and etc. will be purchased. But in all honesty, I promote, give the most shine and spend the most cash on the music I like the most so it doesn’t matter who it is really, I’ll support them with everything I got if their music speaks to me.
I’m not going to lie though…out of all of my friends who like CL, I don’t know any who have paid for any of your stuff yet but I think that when they do develop such a passion for the music or once they have the ability ($) to do so, they would.
Kno said:On a personal note, as a fan, I download shit illegally all the time, too. Some groups get the auto-purchase (The Roots, Outkast, etc.) while some get the once-through at the gym and then I decide if I’m going to buy it or delete it from my phone/iPod.
Because let’s be frank here—most music sucks and truly isn’t worth the money nowadays. This is probably even more reason you should plop down at least .99 cents for one of our songs—simply as a “Thank You” for not sucking.
This is basically my official stance on the matter.
Pozza said:I’m not going to lie though…out of all of my friends who like CL, I don’t know any who have paid for any of your stuff yet but I think that when they do develop such a passion for the music or once they have the ability ($) to do so, they would.
I mean, this is the norm. Based on all the info I have access to, I’d say only around 5-15% of the people who listen to our music actually support us monetarily. Pretty dismal.
So another thing that benefits us is expressing to your friends the difference between an artist like CunninLynguists or Blue Scholars or One.Be.Lo and artists like Eminem or even folks like Blu or Murs who are signed to major labels, is that we literally create what we do, from inception to delivery, all alone and out of pocket. Need a tour van? Gotta pay for it. Need to rent green screens for a video? Gotta pay for it. Need a string quartet to play on a song? Gotta pay for it.
We don’t get advances, we don’t get per diem, we don’t get tour support, we don’t have publishing deals—our ability to continue making music completely hinges on people who like it supporting it in some way.
Kno said:
We don’t get advances, we don’t get per diem, we don’t get tour support, we don’t have publishing deals—our ability to continue making music completely hinges on people who like it supporting it in some way.
I just wanted to add a lil something to this..I had a conversation with my friend chris about downloading shit. He was like why do you even buy music I just download it..I was like cuz if you keep doing that there will be no music to download(Some1 on the boards stated it awhile back)and it kills me man it fucking really does.
Really you can’t spend $15 for a cd.Don’t buy a bag a weed for 1 day , cigerettes etc… What am getting at is IT’S NOT THAT MUCH fora cd, cut corners to whats more important a value meal at mcdonalds or eat at home and get yourself some nice music for $15 and its like they’re playing in your house/car whenever you want… I know some are really on tuff times so like kno said buy a shirt,tell a friend, buy a mp3,something to show you care….
I’m NOT saying what I do is RIGHT but i feel justifiable I would NEVER give my money to jay-z,em, or any well off artist..only for the simple fact I’m funding there “play money” they have MILLIONS and big houses and everything else. They’re at a point where any money they get is to just use for vacations, expensive meals,cars and what have you. not to get off topic too but every1 at QN5 to me is MY version of what some think of em,jay-z and so on… Plus every1 @ QN5 works DAMN HARD not to say that the other i mentioned don’t but to have the quality of music that Qn5 puts out is consistent and really I can’t say that bout many artist so I support not only cuz I love the music but because I want them to be at a point where they just get what they deserve…... nothing but the best for all that they have done
I just wanted to add Im poor like some claim to be too, and even with my smoking,videogame addicitons and making crap $$ (ny taxes are fun) I think I manage to support pretty damn well….just sayin
I used to be a rhapsody user….and please forgive me if im ignorant…i was still rocking a disk man up until 1.5 years ago…...do artists get anything in return from rhapsody? I cancelled rhapsody about 4 months ago, got an Ipod and have started rebuilding my collection as I can afford to do so. Now that I am more financially secure than I have been in the past i want to be more responsible of the ways i buy my music. Especially when purchasing from independant labels/acts (ill steal from Lil-weezy all day)
i found out about CL thru downloading (from a downloaded RJD2 mixtape), which led me into QN5. downloading music has been a blessing and a curse because i’m able to listen to and discover new kinds of music but at the same time the artists aren’t properly compensated. i do my best to support, but with the exception of QN5 and certain others, I’m a try-it-before-you-buy-it kind of person when it comes to music
SiR_FoX said on Jun 23, 2010:
artistKno said on Jun 23, 2010:
artistKno said on Jun 23, 2010:
PretendGirl said on Jun 23, 2010:
energetikk said on Jun 23, 2010:
SiR_FoX said on Jun 23, 2010:
binarystar89 said on Jun 23, 2010:
wrestler1256 said on Jun 23, 2010:
binarystar89 said on Jun 23, 2010:
houstonz said on Jun 23, 2010:
binarystar89 said on Jun 23, 2010:
neverbetter said on Jun 23, 2010:
The Trashman said on Jun 23, 2010:
deStructuralized said on Jun 23, 2010:
deStructuralized said on Jun 23, 2010:
artistKno said on Jun 24, 2010:
artistKno said on Jun 24, 2010:
artistKno said on Jun 24, 2010:
artistKno said on Jun 24, 2010:
KNOWLEDGE said on Jun 24, 2010:
artistKno said on Jun 24, 2010:
Epic Aesthetic said on Jun 24, 2010:
artistDeacon The Villain said on Jun 24, 2010:
artistKno said on Jun 24, 2010:
Pozza said on Jun 24, 2010:
KNOWLEDGE said on Jun 24, 2010:
artistKno said on Jun 24, 2010:
artistDeacon The Villain said on Jun 24, 2010:
thugged0utcubscout said on Jun 24, 2010:
dougone79 said on Jun 24, 2010:
Nitroxide said on Jun 24, 2010: